Rethinking SEO in the age of AI | Eli Schwartz (SEO advisor, author)

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Eli Schwartz is a leading SEO consultant and the author of Product-Led SEO. He has worked with industry giants like Zapier, Tinder, Coinbase, Quora, LinkedIn, and WordPress to build and execute global SEO strategies that significantly enhanced their organic visibility at scale. In our conversation, Eli shares:

• How AI and LLMs are reshaping the SEO landscape

• Why you should be focused on mid-funnel SEO strategies

• How to determine if SEO is the right approach for your business

• Why SEO should be treated as a product rather than just a marketing tactic

• SEO myths

• The future of search in light of recent legal challenges faced by Google

• Much more

Some takeaways:

1. Contrary to popular belief, AI and large language models (LLMs) have transformed SEO, not rendered it obsolete. AI now dominates the start of the search process—top-of-funnel—but SEO remains vital in mid-funnel search, where users seek various options.

2. Common SEO myths to avoid:

   1. Assuming every business needs SEO

   2. Focusing solely on link-building

   3. Thinking Google is a black box

   4. Overemphasizing technical SEO for small websites

3. Consider alternative growth methods outside of SEO if:

   1. Market competition: In highly competitive markets (e.g. cloud services), traditional SEO may be less effective. Explore targeted ads, thought leadership, and partnerships.

   2. Low search volume: For industries with minimal search volume or complex conversion paths (e.g. B2B SaaS), other strategies might be better.

4. In the AI era, SEO is more like a product than a marketing tool, requiring deep understanding of user journeys for effectiveness. To guide your SEO efforts, collaborate with PMs and ask questions like “What does my user need?” and “What kind of experience should I create for them?”

5. The goal is to position your product in a way that fits the user’s self-discovery journey. Trying to shoehorn your product into search rankings won’t lead to long-term success. For example, most SaaS companies shouldn’t rely on traditional SEO because their customers’ decision-making process is longer and involves multiple stakeholders—and can’t be solved through a single search.

Where to find Eli Schwartz:

• X: https://x.com/5le

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/schwartze/

• Website: https://www.elischwartz.co/

• Newsletter: https://www.productledseo.com/

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Eli’s background

(02:10) The impact of AI on SEO strategies

(11:34) Understanding search intent

(15:30) Real-world impact and structured vs. unstructured data

(20:19) Top-of-funnel vs mid-funnel SEO strategies

(22:57) Case studies

(31:29) Steps for getting started with SEO

(35:20) Examples of when not to focus on SEO

(39:17) Evaluating SEO investment

(44:00) Understanding the tradeoffs in marketing channels

(46:23) SEO conversion metrics and expectations

(52:09) Understanding the time horizon of SEO

(59:37) The role of AI in content creation

(01:05:26) AI overviews 

(01:07:40) Brand building and SEO

(01:09:51) Programmatic vs. editorial SEO strategies

(01:16:06) Insights from the Google antitrust verdict

(01:20:36) Google’s dominance in search

(01:23:52) The future of SEO and user choice

(01:26:28) SEO myths debunked

(01:36:58) Forecasting SEO success

(01:44:18) The need for SEO expertise

(01:46:26) Lightning round and closing thoughts

Referenced:

• Product-Led SEO: The Why Behind Building Your Organic Growth Strategy: https://www.amazon.com/Product-Led-SEO-Building-Organic-Strategy/dp/1544519567

• SurveyMonkey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/

• Google AI: https://ai.google/

• Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai/

• Claude: https://claude.ai/

• G2: https://www.g2.com/

• Riverside: https://riverside.fm/

• Zapier: https://zapier.com/

• Wade Foster on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wadefoster/

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• Tinder: https://tinder.com/

• Udi Milo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/udimilo/

• The ultimate guide to SEO | Ethan Smith (Graphite): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-seo-ethan-smith

• Mixpanel: https://mixpanel.com/

• Vanta: https://www.vanta.com

• Quora: https://www.quora.com/

• Canva: https://www.canva.com

• Notion: https://www.notion.so/

• Red Ventures: https://www.redventures.com/

• CNet: https://www.cnet.com/

• Noah Smith on X: https://x.com/noahpinion

• Noahpinion newsletter: https://www.noahpinion.blog/

• Leveraging growth advisors, hiring well, mastering SEO, and honing your craft | Luc Levesque (Shopify, Meta, TripAdvisor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/leveraging-growth-advisors-hiring

• Tripadvisor: https://www.tripadvisor.com/

• Zillow: https://www.zillow.com/

• Capterra: https://www.capterra.com/

• U.S. v. Google: all the news from the search antitrust showdown: https://www.theverge.com/23869483/us-v-google-search-antitrust-case-updates

• Bing: https://www.bing.com/

• Neeva: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neeva

• Google’s tweet about the antitrust case: https://x.com/Google_Comms/status/1820558371285508123

• Mailbag: Google and Antitrust Festivus, Credit Card Dominance, AI for Movies and Writing, Shohei’s Contract | Sharp Tech with Ben Thompson: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/mailbag-google-and-antitrust-festivus-credit-card/id1646152812?i=1000638448429

• DuckDuckGo: https://duckduckgo.com/

• Kayak: https://www.kayak.com/

• Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/

• Faire: https://www.faire.com/

• Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

• WordPress: https://wordpress.com/

• Semrush: https://www.semrush.com/

• Ahrefs: https://ahrefs.com/

• Similarweb: https://www.similarweb.com/

• Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

• How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/transform-your-subscription-growth

• Small Data: The Tiny Clues That Uncover Huge Trends: https://www.amazon.com/Small-Data-Clues-Uncover-Trends/dp/1250080681/

• Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action: https://www.amazon.com/Start-Why-Leaders-Inspire-Everyone/dp/1591846447

• Million Dollar Consulting, Sixth Edition: The Professional’s Guide to Growing a Practice: https://www.amazon.com/Million-Dollar-Consulting-Sixth-Professionals/dp/1264264917/

• How to Stop Caring What Others Think: For Real: https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caring-What-Others-Think/dp/B0BLZHJCTN

• BlackBerry on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/blackberry/umc.cmc.3l1hmmtt33myfoyr38vfg85js

• Grammarly: https://www.grammarly.com/

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.